Episode 261
(FULL Episode) Navigating the Changing Landscape of Country Music
A conversation with Don Cusic
The salient point of our discourse centers on the transformative evolution of music education and its intersection with the contemporary music industry. We delve into the intricate nuances of how music education has shifted from a predominantly classical focus to encompass essential business acumen, thereby equipping aspiring musicians with the requisite tools for success in a rapidly changing landscape. Our esteemed guest, a music historian and professor, elucidates the vital skills that students must now acquire, such as understanding copyright laws and marketing strategies, which were scarcely emphasized in prior generations. Furthermore, we explore the impact of technological advancements, particularly in the realms of production and distribution, and how these innovations affect both the creation and consumption of music today. Ultimately, our conversation seeks to illuminate the challenges and opportunities that current and future artists face as they navigate this dynamic and multifaceted industry.
The podcast delves into the ever-evolving landscape of music education and consumption, highlighting a profound transformation in how music is taught and experienced. The discussion centers around the insights of a distinguished music historian, who articulates the traditional emphasis on classical music within educational institutions. However, he notes a significant shift towards incorporating music business education, emphasizing the necessity for contemporary musicians to possess an understanding of copyright, marketing, and the dynamics of the industry. This evolution is framed against the backdrop of technological advancements and the transition from physical media to digital consumption, which has fundamentally altered the listener's engagement with music. The conversation underscores the importance of adaptability in music education, as students now require a multifaceted skill set that encompasses both artistry and business acumen, reflecting the realities of a rapidly changing industry landscape.
Takeaways:
- The evolution of music education has increasingly included business aspects alongside traditional music training.
- The accessibility of music has transformed, with streaming services altering the way music is consumed and appreciated.
- Persistence and social skills are vital attributes for success in the music industry, transcending mere talent.
- Nashville's charm remains intact due to its smaller size and diverse cultural influences, fostering a unique music scene.
Transcript
From classics to curiosity and where melodies meet me.
Speaker A:Welcome.
Speaker A:We're super serious.
Speaker A:We're super serious on the Music Explored podcast.
Speaker A:Thank you for joining us again.
Speaker A:Anthony, my brother, partner in crime.
Speaker A:How are you today?
Speaker B:I am doing amazing, man.
Speaker B:I am glad to be here.
Speaker B:How you doing?
Speaker A:Can't complain.
Speaker A:Grateful to be alive, as always.
Speaker B:And yes, yes.
Speaker A:To do another one of these great episodes with a great guest.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I'm gonna let you intro our phenomenal guest.
Speaker A:He's a very well established man.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, there's so many different things we can cover here.
Speaker B:Music historian, professor, you know, what?
Speaker B:Music, everything.
Speaker B:And I think through the conversation, we'll just let it kind of come out naturally.
Speaker B:But we're glad to have you.
Speaker B:Mr.
Speaker B:Don Cusick, thank you for joining us.
Speaker C:Great to be here.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's a pleasure.
Speaker B:A man who knows a thing or two about being alive, staying alive.
Speaker B:You've lived through some things, and we're.
Speaker B:We're looking forward to picking your brain.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I imagine right off the top that there's been a lot of changes.
Speaker B:Well, to the world, to music, to the way that music's created, to the way that music's consumed.
Speaker B:All of that and more.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And just starting off, I guess, with your education piece or the education branch of what you do, I want to start off with this because I'm so curious.
Speaker B:How has music education changed over the years?
Speaker B:Because we talk about consuming and everything else, but from an education standpoint, have you noticed major changes over the years?
Speaker C:Yeah, of course.
Speaker C:Music education is basically, and has been for years on classical music, marching bands, and musical literacy.
Speaker C:That's the essence of music education.
Speaker C:But what we've seen is that the idea of teaching about the music business has become quite popular.
Speaker C:And I teach at a place called Belmont University, and we have.
Speaker C:It's like about half the school music and music business.
Speaker C:And so that's.
Speaker C:That's been a big difference to that.
Speaker C:The musicians can't just know the music.
Speaker C:They have to know copyright.
Speaker C:They have to know how to market music.
Speaker C:And so many of them are diy, you know, they're.
Speaker C:They've got their own label, their own songs that they're putting up on.
Speaker C:On streaming.
Speaker C:Yeah, of course.
Speaker C:Huge difference in.
Speaker C:It used to be you could touch music, you could feel it.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Record or a cassette or a cd.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Now you don't.
Speaker C:And that's.
Speaker C:It makes listening different because you listen, you know.
Speaker C:God, when I was in college, you know, somebody got an album.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:First of all, it was rare you know?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:You didn't get everything that came out, and you got.
Speaker C:And you sat down together in a dorm room and you listened to one side and you picked it up and you listened to the other side.
Speaker C:Now everybody's listening alone.
Speaker A:So that's very true.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So that idea that, that family feel with music is, Is not here at all.
Speaker B:Yes, that's true.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And even the, the idea of looking at the COVID art, opening up the album, reading through it, checking out the credits, all that seems to be lost.
Speaker A:And that, that for me, like cassettes, opening up cassettes or CD covers, even vinyl, because my father had a lot of vinyl.
Speaker A:Opening it up and seeing the artwork, I think, I think that's been lost in, in the, in the, the music experience today and, and everything is shortened.
Speaker A:They almost cut out bridges completely now.
Speaker A:And it's just weird how the evolution of music has gotten to me worse.
Speaker A:But maybe that's just the old curmudgeon in me complaining about these new kids.
Speaker A:But if going back to musical education, I, I know so much has changed, but what do you think are the most essential skills music students should learn today?
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:That wasn't emphasized 20 years ago.
Speaker A:I know you said copyright and, and all of that.
Speaker A:Was there anything else you think wasn't emphasized before that you really focus on in your later days of teaching?
Speaker C:Well, to see it as a business.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:Because that's, that's what it is.
Speaker C:And, and trying to convince, you know, the students, they're.
Speaker C:They're excited about their songs, their music.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:And you've got to, you know, convince them.
Speaker C:You know, you're going into playing, you're in the food and drink business.
Speaker C:You know, that club owner is hiring you to bring in people to buy food and drink.
Speaker C:Now it's not that, you know, you, you, you spend your life thinking like that because you're still an artist, but the fact of it is, is there's.
Speaker C:There's a business behind it.
Speaker C:And you've got to be not just an artist, but a business person.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:Making decisions in that light.
Speaker A:Sure, for sure.
Speaker A:Leaving a lot of money on the table.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:The main thing is persistence.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:You know that it's a simple fact.
Speaker C:You're just showing up and, and sticking with it, which, you know, how do you teach that in school somewhere?
Speaker B:Yeah, it sounds like, I guess when I'm.
Speaker B:When you're describing, you know, the food being, you know, bringing as an artist or an act in like a restaurant or a club, you're really in that food and Drink, beverage business.
Speaker B:But kind of sounds like that part has not changed.
Speaker B:Is that, is that the way you see it too?
Speaker B:Like over the years, it seems like that is one piece that's in, from what I remember, has always been there.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:You've got to, as an artist, you've got to get in front of people, right?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:And the way that artists make their money and this has been forever.
Speaker C:This just didn't start today, as you, as you mentioned, is that playing live is where you make the money.
Speaker C:Very few people have ever made enough just on royalties.
Speaker C:You know, of course they've been big superstars and you kind of look at them and say, gee, why isn't everybody doing this?
Speaker C:But that, you know, playing, like, if you can't get over live, you can't succeed as an artist because you'll get bookings and, you know, you start at a club.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:You start either clubs or churches, whether you know which way.
Speaker B:Very true.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And then you, you know, and you have a small little circle in your hometown and then you expand it further and expand it further and then it becomes national.
Speaker C:That's generally how the artists have always grown.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:And that.
Speaker C:And that has not changed, I guess.
Speaker B:Yeah, I guess that as sort of like the pathway has not changed.
Speaker B:But now we have.
Speaker B:And it's been a while, but now we have streaming and all these other ways of being an online superstar.
Speaker B:And I'm sure we've all experienced people who have like, you know, become TikTok famous as a artist in whatever, all genres probably at this point and reached that level of success, but have never performed live.
Speaker B:I've met people who are like, you know, they've, they've, they've sat wherever in a studio, they've put out music, they've grown a massive audience and have yet to hit a stage.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So it sounds like you can skip some steps.
Speaker B:Is that something that's discussed in, in like music education programs now at all?
Speaker C:Social media has changed the landscape incredibly.
Speaker C:They're no longer gatekeepers.
Speaker C:Anybody can put up something on Spotify or YouTube or.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:Or one of those streaming services.
Speaker C:The problem is, how do you get it heard?
Speaker C:And most of them are not here.
Speaker C:It's like dropping, dropping it into this endless, endless.
Speaker C:Well, there.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:And trying to get attention.
Speaker C:As far as making money.
Speaker C:There are artists making a hundred thousand a year on, on social media.
Speaker A:Yeah, true.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:But, you know, in order to succeed on social media, it's constant self promotion.
Speaker C:You have got to constantly promote yourself every day.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:And and that wears you out.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker C:Constantly have new product.
Speaker C:And I think for a long term career, I really believe you need to get in front of people.
Speaker C:First of all, it tests you.
Speaker C:You get to test the song.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:You know, Exactly.
Speaker C:People are always asking me, I want you to listen and see, tell me if this is good or not.
Speaker C:And I said no, get in front of a, you know, group of people and they'll tell you.
Speaker C:An audience will tell you whether it's good or not.
Speaker B:That's true.
Speaker B:Even without really thinking, you'll know.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Real quick.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:You can't hide from that.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's, that's interesting.
Speaker B:And I know you've also, you mentioned like the, the club versus the church and.
Speaker B:But those are the two major sort of pathways that we discussed a lot on this podcast.
Speaker B:I wonder from your experience, is one like, do you hear more people that have come, come from one side or the other to like a level of fame?
Speaker B:Have you ever gotten into that?
Speaker B:Basically, like church, you know, church is a pathway or the clubs is a pathway to success.
Speaker B:There any differences?
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:Well, I can't pull out, you know, some examples right away.
Speaker C:But, but what you're talking about is really two different worlds.
Speaker C:It is because, you know, the secular side, that's the music business.
Speaker C:The other side is really the religion business.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:And you've got to, you know, you've got to meet the audience's expectations.
Speaker C:Secular audience doesn't care what you believe.
Speaker C:A religious audience does.
Speaker C:They want you to believe what they believe.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:And, and you know, the pressure is on there.
Speaker B:Yeah, there's a lot of pressure there for sure.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker C:Yeah, so that's, that's, that's the big difference.
Speaker C:You really, in two different worlds.
Speaker C:Very few artists can be popular in both worlds.
Speaker C:You know, the Winans, that is done.
Speaker C:It's Amy Grant has done it.
Speaker C:A few people like that, but it's, it's rare.
Speaker C:And it's rare from the religious side because, you know, a Christian artist or a gospel artist doesn't really feel comfortable in, they call it the world.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's true.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's very true.
Speaker B:It becomes like a means to an end.
Speaker B:From what I've seen.
Speaker B:You might have to kind of dip your toe to, you know, build that fan base, maybe get some extra.
Speaker B:Sometimes it's money.
Speaker B:You know, there's more paying opportunities in, in the world, as you stated, than there are in the church world.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I have seen a little bit of crossover, but more lately I've seen a Lot more people coming from the church world into the secular.
Speaker B:Especially on the musician side.
Speaker B:Maybe not as heavily on the artist, but definitely on the mission.
Speaker B:On mission.
Speaker B:On the musician side.
Speaker B:Yeah, I've seen a lot of that.
Speaker C:A musician has leeway there.
Speaker C:An artist does it.
Speaker C:An artist has got to commit, one, that's true or the other.
Speaker C:Whereas a musician can, you know, I need to play for this act today and that act tomorrow and it doesn't really matter.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's true.
Speaker A:That's a great point.
Speaker B:I think I've thought about it, but I don't think I've actually put it together that way.
Speaker B:It's like a commitment thing.
Speaker B:You don't, you're not, it's not, they're not your words.
Speaker B:You're playing the music behind the artist.
Speaker B:So you could kind of tiptoe around behind the artist.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, that's.
Speaker C:They just want you to be in tune.
Speaker A:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:What do you think is the most misunderstood part of the music business?
Speaker C:Oh, the glamour side.
Speaker C:Because, you know, you see the award show.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And you don't realize that, you know, the other 28 days a month they're spent at a desk doing a desk job, doing emails and you know, in terms of the business side of it, in terms of the artist, size of it side of it is how, you know, a lot of people wouldn't mind being a star if it wasn't so much trouble.
Speaker C:And it's a lot of trouble.
Speaker C:It is really a lot of work.
Speaker C:Like I said, self promote, stay out front, develop new, as they call, new product, artists wants to say, you know, new songs.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:I mean there's no let up.
Speaker C:You, you really have to stick to it.
Speaker C:And of course, you know, you wonder, you know, that's great for a 20 year old.
Speaker C:What's it going to be like when they're 40, 45, 50.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:Can they still sustain that?
Speaker C:Some can and some can't, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's very true.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I guess in that sense.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Life changes as you, as you get older and responsibilities change and.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:In some cases, I mean, maybe your heart would.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:You got to write songs while the baby's crying.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Two different worlds there as well.
Speaker B:So I know that obviously we've mentioned that things have changed over time.
Speaker B:Are there any parts, I'm trying to think about a phrases but are there any parts of, I guess the music experience, the artist experience that were very commonplace in the past that maybe have fallen away that you would like to see back or you miss or wish could be revived.
Speaker B:Does anything come to mind?
Speaker C:Well, you know, of course, I'm an old guy, so physical product, I still miss it.
Speaker C:I still have CDs thing.
Speaker C:I am fortunate that the car, and I can't trade my car in because my car has a CD player.
Speaker C:They don't make them anymore.
Speaker C:Even the computers don't have the CD players.
Speaker C:But yeah, I think the physical aspect, because you feel different about something that you can touch.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:You know, and like you're talking about reading or seeing the COVID picture, reading the line notes, liner notes, see who played on what song.
Speaker C:All of those things I missed that.
Speaker C:That was, and that was part of, part of life, you know, not that long ago really.
Speaker B:Things have progressed and changed quickly.
Speaker B:And I guess, you know, another thing I'm thinking too is just being able to touch like an album or have a record or have a record collection even.
Speaker B:There's something about that that kind of helps with like preserving the music.
Speaker B:Right now it just seems like so much comes out so quickly.
Speaker B:You have a Spotify playlist that you're in love with for a week or two.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then you love it, but forget because the next one came out or something else is popping, pulled you.
Speaker B:It's not like you get to reach over and say, oh yeah, that's still my favorite.
Speaker B:So that's changed.
Speaker B:But what are your thoughts on preserving music history?
Speaker B:Because in my mind that is one way that music history stayed alive was just through having like collections and things like that.
Speaker B:What are your thoughts on that now?
Speaker B:What does it look like for, you know, preserving music from this generation onto the next?
Speaker B:Is it still possible?
Speaker C:You know, preservation always, of course, you've got everything online in the cloud, but you still have the physical product, the books, the records, they're archived.
Speaker C:Somebody's got to keep them somewhere.
Speaker C:And you know, who, you know, well, what's the long term effect of digital?
Speaker C:I mean, we know some of it so far.
Speaker C:But you know, I've had, I've had stuff I put on my computer and it disappeared.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:I go back, you know, a year later and it's disappeared.
Speaker C:So in terms of, in terms of preserving it, I think, you know, when I'm, when I've got stuff I'm working on, I back it up, you know.
Speaker C:Yeah, we got the cloud here.
Speaker C:I, I do, I put it on a thumb drive and then I put it on the hard drive on the, on the computer.
Speaker C:And I used to put things on a cd.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker C:You know, because, you know, if you.
Speaker C:If you're spending a lot of money on a project, you don't want to screw up to wipe it out.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it's going.
Speaker C:So that's.
Speaker C:I think that's important.
Speaker C:And I think what.
Speaker C:I think what we're seeing in school was by teaching them the music business as well as the music, that's going to help preserve things because it'll get people interested.
Speaker C:Not everybody's a musician, but anybody can collect albums and write about them and.
Speaker C:And do those sorts of things.
Speaker C:You don't need that level of skill that a great musician has.
Speaker C:So I.
Speaker C:I think that's in just sheer numbers getting enough people interested that they wanna.
Speaker C:They wanna look into it some more.
Speaker B:Yeah, true.
Speaker B:Much easier said than done, but very true.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then I guess there's also books too, because I know we should talk about.
Speaker B:You have a book coming out, so.
Speaker B:Yes, I'd love for you to shout that out and tell us a little bit about that, but I was going to mention on that.
Speaker B:There's also books, biographies, highlights on artists, musicians and things music related.
Speaker B:I also love music documentaries.
Speaker B:That's one of my favorite ways, I think, given that most of it's true and factual.
Speaker B:You learn a lot about an artist's life and career that way.
Speaker A:So I.
Speaker B:That's another way that comes to mind there.
Speaker B:But, yeah.
Speaker B:Please take this opportunity to tell us about your upcoming project and your new book.
Speaker C:Well, well, of course, Chet Atkins is known for being a country guy and he certainly was.
Speaker C:He was in Nashville, but he was a great guitar player and he recorded a lot of jazz.
Speaker C:One of the things that people are forgetting is that he was connected to early rock and roll.
Speaker C:He produced Elvis Presley, he played on the sessions.
Speaker C:The early Everly Brothers.
Speaker C:He played on those sessions.
Speaker C:He produced some of those sessions for the Everly Brothers.
Speaker C:And then we get to the Beatles and here you have a guy who you.
Speaker C:When.
Speaker C:When the Beatles appeared on the Ed Sullivan show In February of 64, George Harrison, the lead guitar player, was playing a Chet Atkins gresh guitar.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker C:He had connections with.
Speaker C:And of course, later he records with Paul McCartney.
Speaker C:Here is a guy who.
Speaker C:Who never stopped practicing.
Speaker C:And that's a lesson for musicians.
Speaker C:Because Mo, you know, a lot of musicians, I know the ones surrounding in Nashville, they get to the point where they're very accomplished, very good, they have a gig, they can pick up the guitar or go to the piano and play it, but they quit.
Speaker C:Practicing, you know, doing the scales, doing the.
Speaker C:The dull stuff.
Speaker C:And Chet never stopped practicing.
Speaker C:But he was a real.
Speaker C:He was a real giant here in Nashville.
Speaker C:And he was executive head of rca.
Speaker C:He was a producer, did, produced, you know, Waylon Jennings and Eddie Arnold and Willie Nelson and a massive amount of hits.
Speaker C:So he's just one of those larger than life figures that come through every now and then.
Speaker C:And of course, you know, he's been dead for like 20, 25 years or so, and people are forgetting him, but.
Speaker C:So hopefully this book will.
Speaker C:Will bring him back into focus.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Front of mind.
Speaker A:And was that the motivation for you writing the book was just to kind of allow people to really understand the legend that he was?
Speaker C:That's part of it.
Speaker C:You know, people always ask, where do you get your ideas?
Speaker C:How do you decide what to write about?
Speaker C:And the honest answer, the least.
Speaker C:The least satisfying answer, but the most honest, is the subject chooses me or the subject chooses.
Speaker C:You Might start with you've heard.
Speaker C:You just happen to hear something on the radio or hear something out over.
Speaker C:You know, somehow, some way or somebody brings up the subject and.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And then you read a little more about it and next thing you know, you're in it deeper and it's like, hey, I can do this.
Speaker C:At some point, you make a commitment.
Speaker C:Yeah, I wanna.
Speaker C:This is what I want to do.
Speaker C:But really, the subjects choose you.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:I know that sounds kind of flaky, a little far out.
Speaker A:No, no, that's profound.
Speaker B:It sounds profound to me.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, I get it.
Speaker B:I get it.
Speaker B:You know what?
Speaker B:I know, Derick, you have some Nashville things you probably want to get into.
Speaker B:If I know you as well as I believe to.
Speaker B:But I want to ask you this first.
Speaker B:Where does your love for music stem from?
Speaker B:We skipped that in the beginning, but I'm so curious hearing you talk about it.
Speaker C:Well, it started with this little plastic radio sitting on top of the refrigerator that plays.
Speaker C:And my parents never changed the dialogue.
Speaker C:It was on one.
Speaker C:One dial.
Speaker C:But, you know, that's when I'm hearing music every day.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And then, you know, when you're.
Speaker C:When you're about 13 or 14, you latch on to music like you've never done before.
Speaker C:You've heard it, you've liked it, but it becomes a soundtrack of your life.
Speaker C:It's your friends.
Speaker C:That's what your friends socialize with.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And for me, that.
Speaker C:That period was my.
Speaker C:My influences were Hank Williams, Roger Miller and the Beatles, and they.
Speaker C:That really hit me.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:And it's still.
Speaker C:And you know, as long as you live, you will.
Speaker C:No music will ever be as good as what you heard in those teen years into your very early twenties.
Speaker C:That's what you're locked into.
Speaker C:You compare music to that all the time.
Speaker C:So, you know, that's.
Speaker C:That's kind of where my roots are, and I.
Speaker C:And I go back to them, so.
Speaker B:Amazing.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It was interesting the way that your face kind of lit up when you talked about that plastic radio, too.
Speaker B:A lot of memories connected to it.
Speaker B:Yeah, but.
Speaker B:And you had one station, so for some of us, I mean, I.
Speaker B:I grew up, there was still a radio.
Speaker B:We're still holding on to that.
Speaker B:It was still a thing, actually.
Speaker B:But, yeah, for some people listening now, I'm sure they wouldn't even be able to wrap their head around the concept of having to wait to hear the song that you want to hear so badly.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Like, it wasn't a matter of just pressing play.
Speaker B:And now you get to hear that song.
Speaker B:Like, you had to wait till the programming or the programmer, however it worked, the dj, I guess, played that song.
Speaker B:It's a very, very different way of consuming music back then.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Well, my students, they tell me right up front, I don't listen to the radio.
Speaker C:That's one of the first things they say.
Speaker C:I don't listen to the radio.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Which is a little bit of a lie because you turn, get on the car and get started, and radio comes.
Speaker C:Things like that.
Speaker C:But, yeah, they don't.
Speaker C:They don't listen to the radio.
Speaker C:And, you know, you talk about how things change and how have they changed?
Speaker C:You know, you got an album.
Speaker C:It was a big deal to get an album.
Speaker C:It was like $4.
Speaker C:That was a lot of money, or $5.
Speaker C:And you get one.
Speaker C:And you played those 10 or 12 songs over and over and over again.
Speaker C:And now how many songs can you have access to?
Speaker C:And so it's lost its exclusivity.
Speaker C:It's lost its mystery.
Speaker C:It's lost its.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:You know, it's been taken for granted.
Speaker C:You know, you talk about having a cassette and, you know, opening it up on the way home.
Speaker C:Well, here.
Speaker C:You know, this.
Speaker C:How about so and so?
Speaker C:How about Such and Such a song?
Speaker C:Wait a minute.
Speaker C:And they pull out their.
Speaker C:Their iPhone and dial up the Spotify or whatever, the Apple music, whatever they're on, and they hear it right away, even in.
Speaker C:But it doesn't last as long.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, not at all.
Speaker B:That's true.
Speaker A:Very.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Temporary.
Speaker A:It's like microwave music now.
Speaker A:Quick and easy.
Speaker A:And then you forget about it.
Speaker A:Once they're done.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But keeping in the vein of like, change and evolution, I mean, you're.
Speaker A:You're knee deep in the Nashville scene.
Speaker A:And I've seen over the last 20 years, not only has country really made a giant resurgence in the last decade, but that region has become actually like, world renowned because we're in Canada and everyone knows Nashville is one of the best music scenes on earth, definitely in America.
Speaker A:But it's.
Speaker A:What have you noticed the most in being in the country music scene and watching it kind of have this new resurgent where I think it's probably one of the most popular genres in.
Speaker A:In America right now with that and hip hop and stuff.
Speaker A:But countries really at the.
Speaker A:At the forefront of, you know, all the big stars seem to be country music stars now.
Speaker C:Yeah, well, the.
Speaker C:The thing of it is, is Nashville has always been a very diverse.
Speaker C:It's known for country music.
Speaker C:You say Nashville and think country music, you go back a few years and it was the number one place for R B radio.
Speaker C:Yeah, this was late 40s, early 50s.
Speaker C:And you know, you've got a whole wide variety of music coming out of Nashville.
Speaker C:Christian music is kind of headquartered here.
Speaker C:Melody or production wise.
Speaker C:That's different than.
Speaker C:Than country.
Speaker C:Yeah, the big difference.
Speaker C:The big difference in.
Speaker C:In music today is the technology.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:You can make a perfect record.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And everybody is using computers.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:Well, you know, maybe the classical guys aren't, but, you know, you talk about rap and pop and R B and country.
Speaker C:They're all using basically the same computers, the same software.
Speaker C:Well, it's basically two different kinds of software and use one or the other.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And so that.
Speaker C:That's given a sameness to sound.
Speaker C:But the other thing was somewhere along the line, particularly that may have happened with Garth Brooks, country became cool.
Speaker C:And if you go back, there was a real division because between pop music and country music.
Speaker C:And the pop folks did not like country because it represented all the negative things, you know, that was.
Speaker C:It was racist, it was backwards, it was dumb, it was, you know, people you didn't want to associate with.
Speaker C:You know, it wasn't cool.
Speaker C:And the pop side was.
Speaker C:Was.
Speaker C:And so what it.
Speaker C:What has happened was we've seen is country has been cool and a lot of that has to do with the production.
Speaker C:It sounds a lot like pop music.
Speaker C:It doesn't sound like Hank Williams anymore.
Speaker B:True, true.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I'm also wondering.
Speaker A:Oh, sorry.
Speaker A:I'm sorry.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Let me just.
Speaker A:That's the worst.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:I'm sure we both have Tons of questions now every time you say something and trying to bring something else.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:Because you mentioned Nashville, and I don't want to get away from that because we have a lot more questions, just curiosity.
Speaker B:But being from Canada, Toronto, we see the States probably differently.
Speaker B:So when I think of, like, there's different hubs across the United States, there's a lot of them musically that.
Speaker B:That come to mind.
Speaker B:But how does Nashville sort of different than, like, LA, NY?
Speaker B:Like, what's.
Speaker B:What's the Nashville charm, do you think?
Speaker C:Well, you're from Canada.
Speaker C:You're seeing us a whole lot different in this past month or two.
Speaker B:No comment.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker C:There's three places in the United States that are totally different than other parts of the United States.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker C:New York City.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:Texas and Southern California.
Speaker C:And they're just different than the rest of the country.
Speaker C:Nashville still has that Southern charm.
Speaker C:You know, the good old boys were all friendly, a little laid back.
Speaker C:New York is high, intense intensity, high pressure.
Speaker C:Louisiana is, you know, the ultimate in cool.
Speaker C:And Texas is just a world of its own.
Speaker C:If you go there, wear cowboy boots.
Speaker A:For sure.
Speaker B:That's funny.
Speaker A:Just kind of.
Speaker A:And Nashville is.
Speaker A:Sorry.
Speaker A:Going back, but I feel like there's this wonderful intersection between gospel music and country music that I know over the years.
Speaker A:Even as a child, my father would play like Conway Twitty, Dolly Parton, Kenny Rogers, and you could hear gospel influence.
Speaker A:And I was 8, 9, 10 years old, and I could feel that right away.
Speaker A:Can you talk a little bit about how country music and gospel music intersect culturally and musically?
Speaker A:And can you share any insight as to why you think that is or what you know to be the case as to why it intersects?
Speaker C:Well, they grew up.
Speaker C:A lot of them grew up in a church, and that.
Speaker C:That makes a difference.
Speaker C:And again, that Southern culture, and part of that is a religious culture.
Speaker C:You know, the thing with a country.
Speaker C:With country music, you can do.
Speaker C:Go see a country act, and they'll have, you know, secular songs, and then they'll drop in.
Speaker C:A gospel song.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:Black gospel is not like that.
Speaker C:I mean, you're either black gospel, you're either the devil or God.
Speaker C:You don't mix the two.
Speaker C:You mix the two, you get called on the carpet.
Speaker C:Whereas with.
Speaker C:With country, it can blend a lot easier.
Speaker C:Am I hitting?
Speaker B:That is so funny, but so true.
Speaker A:That's just great.
Speaker B:Oh, man, that's funny.
Speaker B:I'm gonna talk about that again later on.
Speaker B:It's actually something I never thought about, but it's so True.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Oh, boy.
Speaker B:I guess there's some reasons for that too.
Speaker B:I guess.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:The blend of music is a little closer related than some of the others.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, people are more confident, I mean, more comfortable talking religion.
Speaker C:It's not unusual, you know, you meet somebody.
Speaker C:Well, what church do you go to?
Speaker C:You don't get that in LA or New York.
Speaker C:No, but you get it in Nashville and you get it in the south, you know, what church do you go to?
Speaker C:Or we're going to have a potluck dinner on, you know, Sunday afternoon, all that stuff.
Speaker C:The social life is connected to the church.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Well, as the music, that makes a big difference.
Speaker C:And it was in black culture.
Speaker C:That's true.
Speaker C:The church is part of that social life.
Speaker C:That social but cultural.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's true.
Speaker B:That's true.
Speaker B:It's all connected there, I guess.
Speaker B:Just going a little deeper on Nashville.
Speaker B:Wait, I don't know if you've said this.
Speaker B:Have you always been in Nashville?
Speaker C: I moved to Tennessee in: Speaker C:That's before you were born.
Speaker B:Okay, fair enough.
Speaker C:And in 73, I moved to Nashville.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker C:I've been here since then.
Speaker C:So what's that, 50 years or so?
Speaker B:Yeah, whatever it is.
Speaker B:Yeah, a lot of years.
Speaker B:So how many decades, really?
Speaker B:How many or how much, I guess has Nashville itself changed over the years and what like, significant ways?
Speaker C:Oh, Lord, it's become an it city.
Speaker C:You know, one of the cool places.
Speaker C:We have all of these bridal things coming in.
Speaker C:You know, going to Lower Broadway where all the clubs are and getting drunk and celebrating before they get married.
Speaker C:And in terms of the music industry, it's got a lot more corporate.
Speaker C:It used to be New York and LA ran everything.
Speaker C:Nashville was sort of an outpost.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker C:Now Nashville can make its own decisions.
Speaker C:Yeah, they didn't think we were very smart for a while, change their minds on that.
Speaker C:And of course, just sheer numbers, you know, of the traffic, all of that, you know, the, you know, trying to find housing.
Speaker C:All of those things that, you know, hot.
Speaker C:Some hot cities are.
Speaker C:Are, you know, are facing.
Speaker C:Yeah, people in la.
Speaker C:I run into people from LA quite a bit going, gee, I wish I lived in Nashville.
Speaker C:I'd like to get out of la.
Speaker C:I don't hear that from people from New York.
Speaker C:They don't think they can survive outside of New York.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:And Texas, they, you know, Texas is.
Speaker C:Tennessee's a road trip for them, like where they are.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But a lot of people have migrated to like, like you said, Nashville and Texas over the last decade.
Speaker A:I've noticed a big shift.
Speaker A:And like you said, that commercial.
Speaker A:I don't know what you would call it, but just like the commercial uprising that's really gotten Nashville, because I know four people just in my small circle that have gone to Nashville recently and just talked about the.
Speaker A:The energy and how great of a town it is.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And my one friend that used to go a lot, he doesn't go anymore because he doesn't like the way it's changed and it's gotten really commercial and expensive.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:I wonder.
Speaker A:I wonder if is.
Speaker A:Nash is like, is it possible to preserve what, you know, what makes Nashville, Nashville its charm, or do you think that, like all the other cities, it might.
Speaker A:It might lose that?
Speaker C:Yeah, I think it's still keeping this charm simply because it's a small city, it's not a big city.
Speaker A:True.
Speaker C:And so that's.
Speaker C:That's an advantage.
Speaker C:You know, the key to its growth this, the growth in the south was that it was cold weather up north and it was warmer down South.
Speaker C:Now for a long time, it was too hot.
Speaker C:You sweat too much.
Speaker C:So when they had air conditioning and interstates a lot, it's a lot easier to move to the south and live in the South.
Speaker C:And plus the north lost the industrial base.
Speaker C:That's one of the things, you know, they're talking about trying to bring manufacturing back to.
Speaker C:Back to the United States.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And when they lost that manufacturing base.
Speaker C:Oh, my phone just went off.
Speaker C:When you lose.
Speaker C:When you lose that, you know, you get out of the music business.
Speaker C:Not talking about music per se, but you get out of that and people just looking for jobs and the jobs are disappearing.
Speaker A:True.
Speaker C:Of those.
Speaker C:Of those manufacturing jobs.
Speaker C:So that makes a big difference.
Speaker B:That's true.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's very true.
Speaker B:That is very true.
Speaker B:Well, I guess.
Speaker C:Where in Canada are you from?
Speaker B:We're.
Speaker B:We're both like, outside.
Speaker B:Just outside Toronto.
Speaker C:Oh, I've been there.
Speaker B:Oh, you've been okay.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Good place to be.
Speaker C:A little colder, but I remember shopping malls underground.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, we have.
Speaker A:Yeah, we have those.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's pretty cool.
Speaker B:So I guess just given your history and your.
Speaker B:The amount of time that you spent in Nashville and the changes that you've seen over the years, what would you.
Speaker B:What do you predict is next or what's like, on the rise?
Speaker B:What can we outsiders look out for next from Nashville, do you think?
Speaker C:Well, I think Nashville will keep going because the infrastructure in terms of the music business, just.
Speaker C:Just music business, because we have two really good universities here teaching about the music business, Belmont and Middle Tennessee State.
Speaker C:And so you've got a workforce growing into that because then, you know, you go to school and you have the internships.
Speaker C:If you do good, you can get hired.
Speaker C:So you've got that infrastructure.
Speaker C:That's the thing that Texas doesn't have.
Speaker C:Texas always hated the business.
Speaker C:You know, it's.
Speaker C:If you're an artist, it's cool to say, I hate the business.
Speaker C:I don't want anything to do with the business.
Speaker C:But you got to have the business.
Speaker C:It's a component, important component.
Speaker C:So I think it will continue to grow.
Speaker C:I think now I don't know what's going to happen with AI people.
Speaker C:They're still trying to play with that.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:It's still a toy right now and have it all figured it all out.
Speaker C:But in terms of the technology, with the computers playing a major role in the production, that's going to continue.
Speaker C:And because there's no gatekeepers, you know, it used to be a label decided who to sign.
Speaker C:And it's not.
Speaker C:Anybody can go out and cut.
Speaker C:I say cut a record.
Speaker C:We still call it record.
Speaker C:Still.
Speaker C:Still cut a source or, or a stream or something.
Speaker C:Yeah, I think that, that, that'll remain on the creative side.
Speaker C:As long as we don't have a, you know, a weather disaster or something, I think we'll.
Speaker C:We'll keep going.
Speaker A:Do you think there are challenges that, you know, uniquely face country music artists that most other genres don't really actually have to, you know, deal with?
Speaker C:Yeah, the country, it was about.
Speaker C:Now, I don't know if this is still true, but I know at one time, and it's still true to some extent.
Speaker C:A third of the people in the country hated country music.
Speaker C:They didn't hate it because of the sound, because they'd listen to it and kind of like it.
Speaker C:But that image, that image that dates back for years, you know, the.
Speaker C:The segregated South.
Speaker C:The segregated country, really.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:All of those negative factors, they didn't want to be associated with that.
Speaker C:And we've seen a lot of that fall away.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Especially with.
Speaker C:Amongst the young people.
Speaker C:You know, it used to be, you know, a mixed race couple.
Speaker C:Boy, that was.
Speaker C:They had laws against it.
Speaker C:Now it's just part of life.
Speaker C:All of those things, you know, the tolerance of the gay community, you know, acceptance, I should say, and all of those things.
Speaker C:So you, you know, the south has been dragged along.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker C:And so the young and the young people don't, you know, they don't live in all those old prejudices and and stereotypes and that's been going, going on for a pretty good while.
Speaker C:So I, I think that that's that future.
Speaker C:You got a lot more tolerance as a city.
Speaker C:Even though we're very red state.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:There's, there's, there's a tolerance there and acceptance there that used to not be there.
Speaker C:And like I said, young people are colorblind and you got people coming in, moving in from Minnesota and Oregon and over Texas and LA and Michigan and all of that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And it's not just having people who grew up in a place and they stay in the place.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:So we have a pretty diverse population there in terms of those backgrounds.
Speaker A:True.
Speaker B:Interesting.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So now I was going to ask you a little bit about the university, but you kind of explained what I was, I was about to dive into is just, it sounds like the university is pretty connected with the industry and has different outlets and areas to guide students towards.
Speaker B:Yeah, but I'm still, imagine there's still a lot of ways to make it in the music industry.
Speaker B:I don't know, like what types, like types of students that you mainly are dealing with, but I guess just as an overall.
Speaker B:Do you have some words of advice to, let's say somebody that's getting ready to go into university in some sort of music related program?
Speaker B:What words of guidance would you give them?
Speaker C:Well, the music industry specifically has three centers.
Speaker C:New York, Louisiana and Nashville.
Speaker C:And if you want to be part of that at the major league level, you have to be in one of those three places.
Speaker C:Now there is a music industry in Toronto, in Chicago, in Portland, Oregon and you know, you name it, people are putting on shows, putting, having concerts, going to concerts.
Speaker C:And so, you know, it depends upon what level you want to play at.
Speaker C:We have some students go through this and they go, you know, I miss, I miss mama.
Speaker C:I want to be home.
Speaker C:I'd rather, I'd rather be with my family.
Speaker C:And they don't hear, but the ones that do, we, you know, it's set up so that they can get an education and an opportunity and the ones who take advantage of it are going to succeed.
Speaker C:You know, in any field, there's the creme de la creme, there's the top people, they're going to get jobs, they're going to do well.
Speaker C:And you, all those other people know that from there on down.
Speaker C:And so, you know, the music industry teaches you whether you want to be part of it or not.
Speaker C:You know, you get into it, you have that opportunity and you'll, you'll you'll find that out.
Speaker C:So I think that's, that's a real advantage.
Speaker A:No, no, that, that, that makes perfect sense.
Speaker A:In your years of, of teaching and, and just being part of music in, in a long, long decade, history, history of being around artists, do you notice any traits that stood out to you early on when you're teaching them that like, you know, that they might be an outlier or that this, this one's special?
Speaker A:Is there, is there certain traits that you notice when, when you are teaching or interacting with, you know, a developing artist?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:First of all, talent.
Speaker C:Put that aside.
Speaker C:I mean, that's a given.
Speaker C:You just, you gotta have that.
Speaker C:Start with, of course, then that level headedness, that persistence, that learning.
Speaker C:I remember a very famous artist, one time I was talking to him, he said, my major asset is I know how to meet people.
Speaker C:In other words, because you're always around people, Radio, disc jockeys, retailers.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:A lot of different folks.
Speaker C:And how can you meet them socially, gracefully?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:You know, move on to the next person.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:So that those social skills are so, so important.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:Being up, you know, somebody who's too negative ain't gonna last long.
Speaker C:True.
Speaker C:You know, all those social skills that, that in what they call emotional intelligence, that you don't, you know.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:Blow your top when something doesn't go your way and things like that.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:But I think persistence more than anything else is key.
Speaker B:And do you think with.
Speaker A:Given the way technology has taken over everything, do you worry that schools should hold off on adapting that into the curriculum?
Speaker A:Or do you welcome technology and AI into your career?
Speaker A:The schools, whatever teachings.
Speaker C:You, you froze on.
Speaker C:Can you, can you.
Speaker C:My phone kept going on.
Speaker C:Can you, can you repeat the question?
Speaker A:Because he froze.
Speaker A:Can you hear me?
Speaker C:Some of it.
Speaker B:I can hear you.
Speaker B:Something like you're still frozen.
Speaker A:Gone.
Speaker A:You might have froze.
Speaker B:Oh, we're back.
Speaker B:Sorry.
Speaker C:Am I frozen?
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker B:Okay, there we go.
Speaker C:We're back.
Speaker C:I missed your question.
Speaker C:Yeah, you got frozen there.
Speaker A:Oh, that's okay.
Speaker A:I, I was actually just mentioning, with AI and tech shaping music these days, like we talked about before, do you, do you worry that schools aren't adapting quick enough or they should hold off on adapting, you know, those types of things into their curriculum?
Speaker C:I think you should adapt it now because it's the here and now.
Speaker C:That's what attracts students.
Speaker C:You know, universities are like a business.
Speaker C:They have to attract students.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:To pay tuition, to pay the bills.
Speaker C:And so you got to give students what they want.
Speaker C:And students, even if they don't end up in the music business, they still, during those teen years, latch on to music and music business sounds.
Speaker C:Sounds like a good idea.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:They, you know, if anything, they're behind because they're still in.
Speaker C:Mostly they're still in music departments and they're aiming at musicians.
Speaker C:And by the way, when you go out, you need to know about union scale and to know those things.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And, you know, the other thing is that the hardest things to teach are the things they need most.
Speaker C:Like, how do you teach persistence, how do you teach, you know, the social skills, how do you teach those.
Speaker C:That emotional stability, how do you teach that?
Speaker C:So, you know, somebody just has to get it.
Speaker B:That's true.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:As far as the future with these students, I don't have any problem at all.
Speaker C:You know, I have a ongoing philosophy.
Speaker C:Everybody's smarter than I am and they are in something.
Speaker C:They can do stuff I can't do.
Speaker C:They know stuff I don't know.
Speaker C:And you look at these young people coming in today, and I know it's, you know, I'm around old people and there's all these young kids, they can't do anything and they don't know this and they don't know that.
Speaker C: ight not know an act from the: Speaker C:They're very sharp.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:They should be a little more literate because I don't think they have as much depth because they don't read as much.
Speaker C:But.
Speaker C:But I have.
Speaker C:I have no problems with that.
Speaker C:They're going to do just fine.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, if they need something to read, there's no shortage of material that you've put out, so maybe just start there if you're listening.
Speaker B:It's actually.
Speaker B:It's been amazing chatting with you.
Speaker B:I actually hope that we can have you again and go a little deeper on some specific areas.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker A:Really.
Speaker C:Well, thank you, guys.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, it's.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:If we could ask you one more thing.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:What's next?
Speaker B:Like, I know you have the book coming up, but what are some of your future plans?
Speaker B:Anything you could share with us, what we can look out for?
Speaker C:Well, I have the, The.
Speaker C:The Chet Atkins book, and then I've got a book on Bob Dylan and country music coming out.
Speaker C:I don't know when that's coming out.
Speaker C:And I've been working on some musicals.
Speaker C:Musical on Mini Pearl and then a musical on.
Speaker C: t was kind of like set in the: Speaker C:That pot type sound.
Speaker C:For the.
Speaker C:That we've kind of lost along the way.
Speaker C: and names something from the: Speaker C:And I'm thinking, you know, this generation has lost that.
Speaker C:They don't.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:They don't hear that at all.
Speaker C:There's something there.
Speaker B:You see.
Speaker A:Beautiful.
Speaker B:That's really cool.
Speaker B:Look out for that.
Speaker B:And next time, we'll talk a little bit more about the musicals.
Speaker B:And I know Doriki's eyes lit up in little bit there.
Speaker B:You are a buff.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:Thank you so much.
Speaker B:This has been appreciate.
Speaker B:Great.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker C:Hope you all have a wonderful day.
Speaker B:Yeah, thanks.
Speaker B:You, too, as well.
Speaker A:Take care.
Speaker A:Until next time, everybody.
Speaker A:God bless.
