Episode 246
The Interconnection of Music and Sensory Perception
The focal point of our discussion centers upon the intricate relationship between music and synesthesia, particularly the manner in which synesthetic experiences can enhance musical performance and perception. We delve into the notion that premeditated thoughts regarding musical notes can instill a greater sense of confidence and fluidity during performance, as opposed to a reactive stance that may yield a less cohesive output. Furthermore, we explore the vivid colors associated with various musical intervals and how these perceptions can evolve over time, analogous to the changing flavor profiles of familiar foods. The conversation also touches upon the influence of external substances on sensory perception, particularly in relation to synesthetic experiences, with insights drawn from personal anecdotes and broader cultural observations. In essence, we seek to unravel the complex interplay of sensory experiences that enrich our understanding of music and its multifaceted dimensions.
Takeaways:
- The importance of premeditated thought in musical performance enhances confidence and execution.
- Synesthetic experiences can evolve over time, influencing the perception of musical colors and tones.
- Substances such as psychedelics might alter sensory perception, potentially enhancing synesthetic experiences.
- Stress and unfamiliar genres can diminish the vividness of synesthetic experiences during musical improvisation.
- Cultural interconnections between food and music highlight the layered complexity of both art forms.
- The interplay between musical instruments and their perceived colors showcases the unique perspectives of musicians.
Transcript
On it, and I want to work on stuff, then I can really kind of hone into it.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:Like, you guys play music, right?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So, like, have you ever, like, thought of what you were about to play on your instrument?
Speaker A:Instead of just playing the notes, like you have that pre thought of, like, what you're about to play?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker A:And you play better because of that.
Speaker A:It's kind of like that, right.
Speaker A:Like, if I'm just listening to it, it's like, yeah, I'm still playing, but it's not as confident almost.
Speaker A:So it's just kind of like I'm thinking behind instead of ahead.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's one of those kind of things.
Speaker A:I, I, it takes a while for it to, like, kind of sync up a little bit.
Speaker C:Do you forget, or do you always remember the colors of the music that you've played?
Speaker A:It changes a little bit.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker A:Like, more in, like, I guess, vividness, I'd almost say.
Speaker A:But, like, minor thirds and major thirds are pretty much always, like, blues and purples to, like, reds and yellows.
Speaker A:Pretty much always.
Speaker A:And then when you get, like, chords as, like, major third, minor third, then you get the cross colors, right.
Speaker A:You get the greens and the oranges and stuff.
Speaker D:It's probably like, if you eat a meal a bunch of times, eventually kind of the flavor profile changes for you.
Speaker D:Just from experiencing it over and over.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You hate meatloaf as a kid, and then you start to like meatloaf.
Speaker D:Yeah, Right.
Speaker C:Got it.
Speaker B:Does.
Speaker B:Does it change based on, say, if you smoked weed or did mushrooms or got drunk, would the synesthesia kick in or it, that doesn't really matter.
Speaker B:It has no effect.
Speaker B:Like, would it be crazier if you were high in trying to play an instrument?
Speaker C:That's a good question, because I did read that some people do feel an increased sense when they're drunk or stressed, tired.
Speaker E:I've only noticed, like, when I'm drunk, it's easier just for, like, everything to wash over me because I'm not really thinking, thinking about it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker E:You know, I'm not really like, oh, what, what's that?
Speaker E:It's just more like it just hits you and you can't really stop it, so.
Speaker E:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker D:I'm not a doctor, but it, it does seem like psychedelics sort of make synesthesia possible for everyone.
Speaker A:Well, yeah.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker A:I, I kind of agree.
Speaker D:It interconnects your senses, and because shrooms.
Speaker B:You'Ll get that trip.
Speaker B:So I heard.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker E:Of Course.
Speaker D:So, yeah.
Speaker D:Your senses end up being sent to more than one location.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker D:Plus the ones they're not supposed to be at.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker D:And then you get all kinds of experiences that aren't actually their air quotes.
Speaker A:Have I played music on shrooms or acid?
Speaker A:I gotta think about that first.
Speaker A:Well, I mean, I feel like if you change, if you use any substance, you're going to change your perception a little bit.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Like, have either.
Speaker A:Has anyone done psychedelics?
Speaker A:Like, here in the room?
Speaker A:It's okay.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:The safe space.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:I've done mushrooms.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So, I mean, you feel kind of swampy when you do shrooms.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You kind of feel like you're melding into the earth and you feel everything breathe.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I feel like it was more of a.
Speaker A:Like, I never went to the point of, like, hallucinating.
Speaker A:Like, I didn't get the crazy visuals.
Speaker A:Maybe, like, mosaic, like stained glass.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's, like, the extent of anything, because I never wanted to do it hardcore.
Speaker A:I'd say it was sharper, like, but just in general, that's with everything I was doing.
Speaker A:Like, it felt like I could walk straighter.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It felt like I could improvise better.
Speaker A:But I wouldn't say it changed the colors.
Speaker A:I would maybe say it just wires your brain differently for a minute, for 10 hours.
Speaker A:I mean.
Speaker C:Is there anything that decreases it?
Speaker A:Stress.
Speaker C:Stress.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Same with you, Bridget.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like, 100%.
Speaker E:Like, the first time that, like, getting into different genres decreases it.
Speaker E:Because when I'm.
Speaker E:When I first started learning, you know, jazz or, you know, more of, like, the Indian raga scales, I wasn't really thinking of the colors and the, you know, stuff that I'm seeing to help me, just because I wasn't really yet aware of how the patterns of that music goes.
Speaker E:Because you have.
Speaker E:You have the.
Speaker E:Yeah, you have different patterns in different genres of music.
Speaker E:Like, country is one thing.
Speaker E:Like, you know, whatever.
Speaker E:Blues is another.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker E:But then when I got into jazz, I was like.
Speaker E:I was just concentrating on where the music was going instead of what I was doing then.
Speaker E:Cause I was like, oh, man, they're doing so many different chords all over the place.
Speaker E:What do I even do?
Speaker E:So I was just focusing on myself, panicking, trying to get something out that sounded coherent instead of the music.
Speaker C:It didn't feel as predictable, I guess, as what you were accustomed to.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:But then once, you know, now I can properly improvise.
Speaker E:I mean, not as fancy as you can, probably.
Speaker E:I wouldn't say over jazz.
Speaker A:I got A question for you.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker A:You mentioned like raags and like ragas and like Hindustani music.
Speaker A:How do you feel about quarter tones?
Speaker E:Oh, man.
Speaker E:You know those messed me up for.
Speaker E:Oh.
Speaker E:Like I've been lucky enough to kind of be part of like bigger ensembles.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker E:So I've had kind of like more or less, kind of like one on one teaching from different people who have grown up with that music.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker D:To those of you who are wondering, quarter tones are notes in between the notes we have in Western scales.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker D:So when you hear there can be more, more than.
Speaker D:Than 12 notes in a scale.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker A:There's a number for how many possible notes there is.
Speaker A:I can't write.
Speaker A:It's like 188.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:It's a whole new world.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Okay, so like when I was in university, like I went to U of T, U of tiers.
Speaker A:U of T.
Speaker A:There's a big push in the classical department for like atonal music.
Speaker A:So like more sciency.
Speaker A:Like literally like throwing dice.
Speaker A:And then you get like a tone row and whatever numbers correlate to this and serialism.
Speaker A:Anyways, it's like all very crunchy stuff.
Speaker A:Like, I liked that more because I was synesthetic.
Speaker A:Like all of my colleagues looked at me like a bloody weirdo because they're like, what do you want to listen to this nonsense?
Speaker A:Like, because it's all.
Speaker A:It's really crunchy.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker E:Like we're talking actually.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:But I kind of loved it because like you get all of these weird intervals like back to back that you would never hear in like conventional music.
Speaker A:And it gave me something to like eat.
Speaker A:Like, as a musician.
Speaker A:Like, do you like that kind of music?
Speaker A:A little bit.
Speaker A:Just cuz you're.
Speaker E:I love it like the different.
Speaker E:Like the piano is just some way.
Speaker E:Because it's more like high pitch in a lot of.
Speaker E:So it's like just crazy runs.
Speaker E:But then the tabla are more like water droplet.
Speaker E:Like.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker E:So it's just.
Speaker E:It's just so like.
Speaker E:It's such a contrast.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker E:It's like.
Speaker E:I don't.
Speaker E:It's.
Speaker E:I don't know.
Speaker E:It's just so beautiful.
Speaker A:Cool.
Speaker E:There's so many different textures and like flavors.
Speaker E:It's kind of like just.
Speaker E:I don't.
Speaker E:It's crazy.
Speaker E:And I've been playing Tamil as well.
Speaker E:More like Southern Indian.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Very cool.
Speaker E:And that's hard.
Speaker E:It's crazy.
Speaker E:But like once you kind of start getting it, it's like, okay, cool.
Speaker E:I have a foot in the door.
Speaker E:Let's learn more.
Speaker E:And I've found that in Goan music, like Goa, India.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker E:They have so many, like, flamenco aspects because of all the travelers who came over from Spain and Portugal, so they went there.
Speaker E:So I start hearing, like, flamenco, like this beautiful orange, like, burnt orange sounds in it all of a sudden.
Speaker E:And then, like, this flamenco guitar comes in while these, like, choruses of ladies are like.
Speaker A:That'S amazing.
Speaker E:And it was just, you know, it's just so beautiful.
Speaker E:And I didn't expect it because I've never heard that before in my life.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker E:It's just like having a new sensation or like a new meal at a fancy restaurant.
Speaker E:You're like, I never would have thought to put those two flavors together.
Speaker E:But now that I'm having it, that's amazing.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's like putting, like making basil ice cream.
Speaker A:Also highly recommend.
Speaker A:But it's.
Speaker A:You think it's weird at first, and then you try and you're like, yeah, I can get with it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:Always comes back to food.
Speaker A:Always, Always.
Speaker C:For me, I could always.
Speaker C:I see.
Speaker C:Has nothing to do with what we're talking about.
Speaker C:I'm not a synesthete or whatever you describe yourself, but I've always seen a relationship or a correlation between food and music.
Speaker C:Just like the way the ingredients are layered.
Speaker C:Music is layered as sounds not quite there as far as, like, it might just be something that I've put together just as, like, a comparison in my mind, more than, like, a sense overlap or sensory overlap.
Speaker A:I think that's a really good comparison.
Speaker A:I mean, if we get into, like, etymology of culture, I mean, every culture has food, every culture has music, and they both evolve side by side.
Speaker A:The other one you can throw in is dance, right?
Speaker A:You're making music that no one can dance to.
Speaker A:Like, are you really making music?
Speaker A:And that's a bigger question for us.
Speaker E:It's called classical.
Speaker A:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:Oh, my God.
Speaker A:But you know, whoa.
Speaker C:You're gonna get in a lot of trouble.
Speaker A:I can get in a lot of trouble right now for disempower Bach.
Speaker A:But you can't dance to Bach, right?
Speaker A:Hey, I was in restaurants for 12 years before a pandemic hit.
Speaker A:I'm a young punk, but I've been doing it for a long time.
Speaker A:I love food.
Speaker A:Like, food and music.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I'm with you, man.
Speaker A:Like, it's all about layering things, especially from different cuisines.
Speaker A:Like, you look at Italian cuisine, it's more or less the rule of three, right?
Speaker C:Keeping it simple.
Speaker A:You've got one ingredient, main ingredient.
Speaker A:You got your secondary, and you got something that ties it together.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's.
Speaker A:There's a lot of music written like that.
Speaker C:Very true.
Speaker A:Like, a lot.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You got a chorus, you got a.
Speaker A:Like, a verse, and you got a bridge.
Speaker A:Those are three ingredients with different flavors from instruments.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You can read it so many different ways.
Speaker A:But, yeah, I'm with you, man.
Speaker A:Like, hey, I mean, like, you're a multi instrumentalist.
Speaker A:You must.
Speaker E:Technically, I just do violin and viola, but I'm kind of cheating right now because I have a five string violin.
Speaker E:So it's like.
Speaker E:Oh, no, it's the same thing.
Speaker E:I just.
Speaker A:I don't think it's cheating.
Speaker A:But, like, I'm sure you've picked up a guitar.
Speaker E:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:It's kind of like.
Speaker A:Do you find it's like adding spices to your spice rack?
Speaker E:Absolutely.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's like you get different color tones out of it.
Speaker A:You get different timbres.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:Actually, I.
Speaker E:I wrote just so I wouldn't, like, forget or, like, freeze.
Speaker E:I wrote things down so just so I'm not just trying to think of stuff.
Speaker E:Because for me, it's not really the intervals.
Speaker E:It's more the timbre of the instrument.
Speaker E:So, like, like violins and violin, viola, cello, bass, like, wooden instruments are very, like, orangey but green.
Speaker E:Like, they're very like.
Speaker E:Like.
Speaker E:Like, obviously, like.
Speaker A:I don't know, it's not brown, which would be what those two colors are together.
Speaker E:I know brown, but it's just like, you know.
Speaker E:But then, like, you have horns and things made of steel, and those are more like orange and sharp and not necessarily, like a rare orange, like a pure orange going on white at the top for, like, symbols.
Speaker E:But then, like, horns are just, like, orange or, like, really burnt orange, like, dark orange.
Speaker E:When, like, the trombones do like, their crazy, like.
Speaker E:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker E:Thingies.
Speaker E:It's just crazy.
Speaker E:Let's see.
Speaker E:I have, like.
Speaker E:Violin is orange, but more like yellowish.
Speaker E:Electric violin and electric instruments are kind of, like, sharper.
Speaker E:They're more like red or dark orange.
Speaker E:Viola is orange with more green.
Speaker E:Cello is green with some orange at the top notes.
Speaker E:And bass is more like, brown with purple.
Speaker E:Maroon colors.
Speaker A:You kind of got a gradient going on there.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Okay, that's cool.
Speaker C:And how do they all fit together?
Speaker C:Do they, like, overlap in any way?
Speaker C:Are they stacked?
Speaker B:Is it a rainbow?
Speaker C:Oh, taste the rainbow.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker E:I mean, it's kind of like if I'm listening to a piece of music, I'm gonna notice, like, in my Mind just again, through growing up, reading music.
Speaker E:Like, the top notes are kind of at the top.
Speaker E:So it's kind of like the lines of the violin and the flute and everything are more at the top.
Speaker E:So I kind of see the patterns of those colors up here.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker E:And then I can just kind of like focus in on the mid tones or the lower colors.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker E:It's kind of like when you're reading a book, you have the whole page.
Speaker E:You can focus in on one sentence.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker E:But you won't get distracted by the sentence above or below it.
Speaker B:Gotcha.
Speaker E:Because you're just reading that.
Speaker B:That one line.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker E:One line.
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker D:Did we last time talk about Alice in Wonderland syndrome?
Speaker E:Yeah.
Speaker D:Do you have that?
Speaker E:I.
Speaker B:Wait, what is that?
Speaker A:What is that?
Speaker D:If I'm remembering this, you have it, right?
Speaker E:Sometimes.
Speaker D:Only it's only sometimes.
Speaker D:If you had it all the time, you wouldn't be able to function.
Speaker E:Yeah, only if I'm eating kiwis.
Speaker E:And I'm.
Speaker E:I'm allergic to kiwi fruit.
Speaker E:I'm allergic.
Speaker E:I'm allergic to kiwi fruit.
Speaker E:And I only know that because it would, like, make my mouse slip, like, fuzzy and tingly and itchy.
Speaker D:That's just kiwis.
Speaker E:That's just kiwis.
Speaker A:And then gotta peel them.
Speaker E:So I never really ate them because I'm like, oh, this is a shitty fruit.
Speaker E:Gross.
Speaker E:And then one day I was at work at a bakery and we had some, like, extra fruit left over, so I just, like, ate a slice of kiwi.
Speaker E:I was like, oh, maybe let's try this fruit again.
Speaker E:I'll like it more as an adult.
Speaker E:And then I just felt my hands getting farther away from me, and it was like, boy, it was.
Speaker E:It was like, oh, man.
Speaker D:Like, so Alice in Wonderland, it's.
Speaker D:There are.
Speaker D:There are a lot of.
Speaker D:It seems like people with synesthesia, it seems to.
Speaker D:I don't know if you know this.
Speaker D:I'm not a doctor, so everything I say doesn't matter.
Speaker D:Don't.
Speaker D:Don't write in.
Speaker D:Don't call.
Speaker D:But it.
Speaker D:It's not a.
Speaker D:An extremely well studied area.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker D:Because this, like Alice in Wonderland syndrome, which I'll explain in a second.
Speaker D:Like adhd, there are things that you experience inside.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker D:Like we're talking about this, but there's no way for us to really demonstrate we may be lying too.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker D:It's like it doesn't really matter.
Speaker D:So.
Speaker D:But now there seems to be more evidence that some of these conditions are connected.
Speaker D:So Alice in Wonderland syndrome is something I've had My whole life.
Speaker D:And I didn't know that nobody else has it.
Speaker D:And I don't remember how, but I found the name of the condition.
Speaker D:Like, oh, that's very appropriate.
Speaker D:So your senses change for some reason.
Speaker D:It's accompanied with migraines and panic.
Speaker D:For me, it's the best thing ever.
Speaker D:Everything.
Speaker D:I didn't even know I'm supposed to be scared of it.
Speaker D:Everything becomes super far away.
Speaker D:Like you, where you are.
Speaker A:That's not normal.
Speaker C:You have that.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's totally.
Speaker A:There you go.
Speaker D:Synesthesia.
Speaker D:But see, it's somehow connected, and we should figure out how.
Speaker D:So you're sitting there, and suddenly the TV just is, like 40ft away.
Speaker E:It just kind of like pulls focus.
Speaker E:Like your feet are so much farther away from you.
Speaker D:But it's weird because you have full control.
Speaker D:Like, I can still reach for.
Speaker D:For anything and get it.
Speaker D:It's not like, you know, you're still normal, but it's almost like.
Speaker D:Well.
Speaker D:Or not, but it's almost.
Speaker D:I don't know, it's super weird.
Speaker D:And everything becomes like your TV is just like a thumbnail size at that point, but somehow you can still see it because your eyes are still.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:So everything just feels really right.
Speaker A:But I get the reverse sometimes, too.
Speaker A:I'll feel like I'm really sore.
Speaker D:That's just somebody hugging you.
Speaker A:No, I know, but, like, it's.
Speaker A:It's that perception of, like.
Speaker A:I always get it when I get to go to bed.
Speaker B:Huh.
Speaker A:It's a really.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:Nighttime is usually when it happens.
