Episode 284
Confronting Bias: A Discussion on Gender and Music
This podcast episode delves into the multifaceted challenges and triumphs encountered by female drummers in the music industry. We engage in a profound discourse concerning the pervasive gender inequalities that persist within this realm, as articulated by our esteemed guest, who shares her personal experiences of overcoming skepticism and prejudice. The conversation illuminates the societal biases that often overshadow the talent of female musicians, prompting a critical examination of the algorithms that influence representation in digital platforms. We further explore the importance of solidarity and support among musicians, particularly during the tumultuous times of the pandemic. Ultimately, this dialogue serves not only to shed light on the systemic issues at hand but also to celebrate the resilience and artistry of women in music, fostering an environment of empowerment and recognition.
Takeaways:
- The podcast explores the challenges faced by female drummers in a predominantly male industry, emphasizing the necessity for equality and representation.
- One segment discusses the societal perceptions of women in music, particularly how appearance can overshadow talent and skill in female musicians.
- Another key point is the impact of online comments on artists, highlighting the struggle between seeking validation and maintaining self-confidence in their craft.
- The conversation reflects on the importance of personal development and artistic growth, particularly how the pandemic has influenced individual perspectives on career aspirations.
- Listeners are encouraged to engage in supportive behavior towards women in music, particularly when it comes to recognizing their contributions and talents.
- The overall tone of the podcast is one of empowerment, urging listeners to advocate for gender equality and to challenge stereotypes within the music industry.
Links referenced in this episode:
- www.theDNAproject.ca
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Drumeo
- Tegan and Sarah
- Rich Brown
- Mark Leteri
- Snarky Puppy
- Sheila E.
- Jay Martin
- Ms. Cleo
Transcript
What's funny is I actually.
Speaker A:Because I'm taking piano lessons, I actually knew what you were saying and it felt good.
Speaker B:Okay, start.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker A:Root position.
Speaker B:Next up.
Speaker B:You're.
Speaker B:Can you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You're on your way, man.
Speaker A:Hopefully.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker B:Super fan.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:I'm even afraid to ask this because I'm sure you get asked all the time, but what.
Speaker C:What limitations have you had, both with just physically drums being stupid heavy and just people not taking you probably seriously in the beginning?
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker C:So can you tell us about.
Speaker C:The thing is, I'm sure every interview has this question, but it is.
Speaker C:I want to know.
Speaker C:I want to understand, because as a drummer, I know the attitude drummers have had and just musicians in general, I find.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker C:How did you combat that?
Speaker D:So you're sugar coating the question.
Speaker A:I mean, just like, it's not his style.
Speaker D:It's okay.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, there's also other females who are probably listening who are coming up.
Speaker B:So this is.
Speaker B:This is good stuff.
Speaker D:I'll say a lot of things.
Speaker D:So I'll say a lot of things.
Speaker D:Like, so growing up, for me, especially, like, when I was on tour and stuff like that, when I walked in the room, everyone's like, oh, the singer's here.
Speaker D:Or when I walked to the drums, like, nobody paid any attention to me.
Speaker D:And until I started playing a groove and I'm like, do I have to, like, purposely prove myself every single time?
Speaker B:Frustrating.
Speaker D:Very frustrating.
Speaker D:So that became a thing.
Speaker D:And then people started saying, we didn't expect you to play like that.
Speaker D:You're amazing.
Speaker D:And I'm like, like, like, thank you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:But, like, yeah, it's a bit, you.
Speaker A:Know, I totally understand.
Speaker D:And re.
Speaker D:Have you guys heard of drumeo?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker D:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker D:So I don't, like, a lot of work with drumeo.
Speaker D:And back in November, I did.
Speaker D:I played Thriller and drumeo's like, talk about something that's very near and dear to your heart.
Speaker D:So I'm like, all right, cool.
Speaker D:Like, I want to talk about gender inequality.
Speaker D:And this was the first time I really, like, talked about something that was not political, but maybe some people could, like, argue against for sure.
Speaker D:I didn't know how it would have been received.
Speaker D:I was like, okay, no one's even going to pay any attention.
Speaker D:Oh, my God.
Speaker D:The chaos that that video caused online.
Speaker D:Oh, my God.
Speaker D:Like, I couldn't sleep for two nights.
Speaker D:Like, I would say 60% of people were like, yes, gender inequality exists.
Speaker D:And then 40% was like, we talking about men face the same thing.
Speaker D:And I don't want to go here, but I do.
Speaker D:So, like, for example.
Speaker D:Yeah, okay, I'll do it.
Speaker B:Lace up your boots.
Speaker D:Let's go, let's go.
Speaker D:So, you know, like, black.
Speaker D:Black lives matter.
Speaker D:And when people said all lives matter, it's like, I'm not comparing, but I'm saying the effect that you feel when.
Speaker D:When you're facing something and someone says, but we face it, too, but it's like, it's different.
Speaker D:Hello?
Speaker D:So that's what was happening.
Speaker D:And then I got to a point where I'm like, you know what?
Speaker D:Like, I don't have to owe anybody an explanation.
Speaker D:So then after that point, I'm just like, I'm just going to keep speaking my mind after that.
Speaker D:So anyway, like, people don't understand, and it's a hard thing all the time.
Speaker D:Even, like, feeling sometimes unsafe.
Speaker D:The simplest thing is, like, walking around at nighttime.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker D:I always tell, like.
Speaker D:Like the guys around me, like, wait for me.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker D:You know, So I always tell them they should know.
Speaker D:So whatever.
Speaker D:Guys are listening right now.
Speaker D:Like, when you see, like, a lady, just, like, wait for her and make sure she goes to her car safely and stuff like that.
Speaker A:And you be safe.
Speaker A:Don't be a creep, too.
Speaker D:Yeah, yeah, don't.
Speaker D:And there's been, like, creeps around me, too.
Speaker D:And you gotta like, yeah.
Speaker D:Oh, my.
Speaker D:That's a whole other thing.
Speaker C:And if you're walking alone at night and you see a woman or anybody who seems vulnerable coming towards you cross the street, do them a favor.
Speaker D:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Run ice cream and run.
Speaker C:Run away.
Speaker C:But, you know, one thing that, you know, hunting for educational videos and all that.
Speaker C:One thing that did always bother me is that the.
Speaker C:The videos of female drummers that the algorithm favored were not necessarily very skilled.
Speaker A:I know where you're going with this.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker C:And I'm just like, there's no way that there aren't female drummers that kick ass and you have to really look for them.
Speaker C:And what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker C:Because it's obviously a veneer of what the world's actually like on my Instagram.
Speaker A:That's interesting.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:Blame the algorithm.
Speaker D:I swear, honey, this is what I think.
Speaker D:Like, every human being who's a drummer is good and bad, but what society does today is because women can look cute.
Speaker D:You know, they can look sexy online or whatever, and then they get labeled as, oh, women who show their belly.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker D:Oh, so that means all women who are cute, they play bad.
Speaker D:And I think it's just labels, for sure.
Speaker D:And when I see these Labels.
Speaker D:I see it across the board, even in terms of race, gender.
Speaker D:Every.
Speaker D:Every.
Speaker D:So I think, like, that's an issue because it's like, even sometimes when I, you know, want to look a little cute and play a little bit of drums, you know, like, sometimes I get comments like, oh, she's just getting raised because she's a girl.
Speaker D:And it's like, then that means, like, then all the work that I've done now that gets taken away from me.
Speaker D:So it's like, I feel like either way you look at it, it's like we're losing.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker D:But not.
Speaker D:I don't want to like, play this victim party.
Speaker D:I mean, like, it's getting better.
Speaker D:I feel like we're at such a good place now.
Speaker D:And like, Sheila E.
Speaker D:She's been so supportive of me.
Speaker D:I played like on a song with her.
Speaker C:So why am I surprised that, you know, she, of course, you know, she, of course.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker D:But like, people like K, everyone's just like moving everything forward.
Speaker D:So it's.
Speaker D:It's getting better.
Speaker D:I believe it is.
Speaker A:Every episode of the DNA Airwaves is recorded and produced at the mpl.
Speaker A:The NPL is a collection of film, music and audio post production suites located in the GTA.
Speaker A:Please visit the-mpl that's maplewithoutthevowels.com to learn how they can help you with your next film or audio production.
Speaker C:Do you read comments?
Speaker C:Do you read all the comments or have you stopped at this point?
Speaker A:Yeah, it must be overwhelming.
Speaker D:It's hard.
Speaker D:I think I'm stopping now.
Speaker D:As of this moment, as of right now.
Speaker D:It's hurtful, like, especially.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:And like, since the pandemic started, like, and I did that Thriller video where I got a lot of negative comments, I'm like, I have nothing to lose.
Speaker D:Let me just freaking be me.
Speaker D:Just go for it.
Speaker D:And even like the merch that I launched, I don't know if you guys got a chance to check it out.
Speaker A:You know, Got your face on.
Speaker D:Oh my.
Speaker D:I was gonna wear that today, actually.
Speaker D:Let me wear these red ones that look good on camera.
Speaker D:But it's just like trying to be my stuff.
Speaker D:And some people are like, she's on acid, she's on drugs.
Speaker D:She needs.
Speaker D:She needs a psychiatrist.
Speaker A:People that don't know you, it's just ridiculous.
Speaker D:But it's okay.
Speaker D:I like it because it's like, you know, we're all.
Speaker D:Okay not to get a little philosophical, like, we're all children of God, right?
Speaker D:Like, we're all beautiful.
Speaker D:And why do we have to be one specific way to be accepted in society.
Speaker D:So I'm just trying to, like, break those boundaries.
Speaker B:That's it.
Speaker A:But do you find that reading the comments had an effect on you?
Speaker D:Yeah, because it made me question what I'm doing and if I'm good enough or if I'm right or wrong.
Speaker A:And you think still reading it is okay?
Speaker A:Like, instead of just avoiding it, I think.
Speaker D:I don't know.
Speaker D:I think you can't avoid it.
Speaker D:Because sometimes what if you see it?
Speaker D:Like, if you open.
Speaker D:I open my phone, I'll be like, oh, negative comment.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker D:So if I try to dodge something or avoid it, I'm resisting it rather than.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:And then it kind of just like, it stays there and it lingers there.
Speaker D:So, oh, that person thinks that I suck or whatever.
Speaker D:That's their opinion.
Speaker D:But, you know, I love what I do, and I don't need, like, somebody's validation, you know, especially through that.
Speaker B:You've already more than proven yourself.
Speaker B:Continue to do that every day.
Speaker D:Appreciate that.
Speaker B:You're outplaying, outperforming almost everybody.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So listen, if you guys have something negative to say to Sarah, email us.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And we'll deal with you.
Speaker B:Deal with you.
Speaker B:Hey, man, I hung out with Jay Martin on It's Crazy, man.
Speaker D:Man, that's funny.
Speaker B:You got this, Sarah.
Speaker D:Thank you.
Speaker B:What's the best email or phone call that you've ever received?
Speaker D:Oh, I think about that.
Speaker B:Second to the podcast.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:I was gonna say that this is number one.
Speaker A:That was assumed.
Speaker D:Yeah, that's okay.
Speaker D:That's obvious.
Speaker D:Number two, I have to.
Speaker D:Oh, my God.
Speaker D:The best phone call.
Speaker C:Ms.
Speaker C:Cleo.
Speaker A:You might be too young.
Speaker C:You might be too young for Ms.
Speaker C:Cleo.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker D:Ms.
Speaker D:Cleo.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Who's Ms.
Speaker A:Cleo?
Speaker C:There was a.
Speaker A:She was a Jamaica fake Jamaican psychic.
Speaker C:And she'd like on TV in Toronto.
Speaker C:It was local.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:People would call in and ask.
Speaker B:She must be on YouTube.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:For like, their fortune.
Speaker C:And she would.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And she wasn't Jamaican.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:That accent was horrific.
Speaker B:Maybe you could do a Drum video to Ms.
Speaker B:Cleo.
Speaker D:Okay, I'm gonna do that now.
Speaker C:We can chop it up.
Speaker C:We can figure it out.
Speaker D:Maybe we can do it today.
Speaker D:Let's do it serious.
Speaker D:Okay.
Speaker D:You find the video and we'll do it today.
Speaker D:Done.
Speaker C:All right.
Speaker A:Who's been the fa.
Speaker A:Your most favorite artist to play with?
Speaker B:Oh.
Speaker D:Oh.
Speaker A:I guess that might put you in a bad situation or some of your favorite.
Speaker A:Name some.
Speaker B:You have to name one too many, man.
Speaker B:I can imagine.
Speaker D:Oh, man.
Speaker D:I should have come prepared.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker B:Oh, you played with Rich Brown, too?
Speaker B:What?
Speaker B:You did with Rich Brown.
Speaker D:Okay, you know what?
Speaker D:Okay, let me say.
Speaker D:So when I played with Rich Brown and Mark Leteri, who's from Snarky Puppy, okay.
Speaker D:We played at Hugh's room two years ago now, and it was, like, one of my favorite gigs that I've ever done because, like, Mark sent us the music.
Speaker D:Obviously, we had no rehearsal.
Speaker D:We just, like, did sound check and we played.
Speaker D:But it was kind of like, know the music and do your thing.
Speaker D:And I felt like us three were so locked into the moment.
Speaker D:It felt like amazing.
Speaker A:Nice.
Speaker D:Magic.
Speaker D:Oh, actually, wait.
Speaker D:Oh, another one.
Speaker D:Okay, now things are popping up.
Speaker D:Okay, so at the Colbert show, I played with Tegan.
Speaker D:Stephen Colbert show.
Speaker B:Oh, okay.
Speaker D:That was, like, one year ago or something, and that was with Tegan.
Speaker D:I know I'm losing track of time, but.
Speaker D:No, recently was Seth Meyers.
Speaker D:You're probably thinking about that maybe.
Speaker C:No, I'm thinking of Colbert.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker C:I'm just.
Speaker C:I stopped understanding time at this point.
Speaker D:But that was a lot of fun because I was with, like, the Canadian, like, sensations, Tegan and Sarah.
Speaker D:It's, like, kind of rock pop.
Speaker D:And so what was so cool was that, you know, we went into the setup, and they're like, you know, Sarah, there was, like, a stylist.
Speaker D:I'm like, yeah, Tegan and Sarah over there.
Speaker D:And I'm like, oh, they want to, like, put something on me.
Speaker D:I'm like, oh, cool.
Speaker D:They care.
Speaker D:I'm like, okay.
Speaker D:And then they started setting up the stage, and I'm thinking, like, you know, I'll be put in the corner under, like, black curtains or something.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:You know, and then after they started, like, moving the drum riser forward, and I'm like, oh, this is fancy.
Speaker D:Then I could.
Speaker D:Then when I watched it back, like, I'm like, center stage and, like, get the camera on me.
Speaker D:And, like, John Baptiste is, like, right there watching me.
Speaker D:And, like, that was, like, crazy.
Speaker D:That was one of my favorite performances, too.
Speaker A:That's amazing.
Speaker D:It's crazy.
Speaker C:I must be really kind of irritating to start getting notoriety like this.
Speaker C:And then the pandemic happens.
Speaker D:Yeah, you know what?
Speaker B:But still virtual, right?
Speaker C:You're still blowing up, but you really started to blow up, like, touring and everything.
Speaker D:But you know what?
Speaker D:I'm so.
Speaker D:You're right.
Speaker D:And, like, what I'm so grateful for is that, like, I feel like I've changed my perspective.
Speaker D:Like, I feel like when I come out of the Pandemic, I'm not going to be what I used to be in terms of mindset.
Speaker D:So I'll tell you why I don't think many should.
Speaker A:I like that.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's great.
Speaker D:Oh, yeah.
Speaker D:Like, so for me, before the pandemic, it was just go, go.
Speaker D:And I was going to go on tour for two months.
Speaker D:Like, we were in L.
Speaker D:A.
Speaker D:Yeah, yeah, yeah, we were.
Speaker D:No, no, we were in L.
Speaker D:A.
Speaker D:Yeah, we were on, like, day two of rehearsal, and then I had to come home.
Speaker D:And I'm actually grateful that I didn't go on the tour because then I realized that I don't just want to be a musician anymore.
Speaker D:I feel like I've always had a dream of, like, being at the front of the stage since I was a kid.
Speaker D:Like, I was, like.
Speaker D:I was the host of different shows.
Speaker D:I did plays here.
Speaker D:I love, like, comedy, talking to people, and I loved being an artist, and I feel like I have that in me.
Speaker D:So I'm like, let's start developing that side.
Speaker D:So I feel like as soon as the pandemic's over, I'm working on music, but it's like jazzy music.
Speaker D:Nerd E.
Speaker D:Okay.
Speaker D:Drum heavy, E.
Speaker D:But, like, like, you know, my mom, who's, like, tone deaf, can be like, oh, this is nice, you know, so like, kind of appeals to everybody.
Speaker D:So when I come out of the pandemic, I want to, you know, become more of an artist and also play music as a musician, but with, like, selective.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker D:You know?
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:So singing heavy, are you going to sing?
Speaker D:Sing?
Speaker D:Yeah, But I'm not, like, you know, like, no, like, Jasmine Sullivan or anything.
Speaker D:I mean, like, I'll just sing, like, a hook here and there.
