Episode 289
Benchmarking Against Greatness: The Modesty of a Dedicated Musician
The salient point of this podcast episode centers around the multifaceted nature of musicianship and the diverse paths that drummers may pursue within the realm of music. We delve into the notion that while some individuals possess extraordinary natural talent, others can achieve proficiency through dedication and a strong work ethic. The discussion further explores the implications of technological advancements on contemporary drumming, highlighting how electronic elements influence traditional playing styles. We emphasize the importance of listening as a foundational skill for any musician, positing that true musicality transcends mere technical ability and requires a deep engagement with the art form. Ultimately, we reflect on the evolving landscape of music, where drummers must adapt and innovate to maintain relevance in an increasingly digital world.
The discourse within the podcast episode illuminates the multifaceted journey of musicianship, particularly through the lens of drumming. The speakers delve into the inherent motivation that drives individuals to engage with their craft, emphasizing the importance of inspiration rather than succumbing to discouragement in the face of overwhelming talent exhibited by others, such as renowned drummers like Larnell Lewis. Speaker A articulates a profound understanding of their own limitations while simultaneously recognizing the value of personal progress and enjoyment in the art of drumming. This nuanced perspective fosters a community of encouragement and camaraderie among musicians, where the pursuit of excellence is celebrated, irrespective of individual benchmarks of success. The discussion further navigates the intricate relationship between natural ability and relentless work ethic, underscoring that while some may possess innate talent, it is often the combination of dedication and skill development that propels a musician to new heights. This discourse serves as a reminder that the journey of a musician is not merely about competition but rather about personal evolution and shared experiences.
Takeaways:
- The importance of humility is emphasized when comparing one's skills to those of the best drummers.
- Listening is identified as a fundamental skill necessary for effective musicianship and communication.
- The integration of technology in music has transformed traditional drumming practices, influencing how drummers perform.
- Drummers are encouraged to explore various musical styles in order to enhance their versatility and creativity.
- A discussion about the competitive nature of music highlights the need for artists to focus on personal growth rather than comparison.
- Technology continues to evolve the music industry, requiring musicians to adapt and innovate in their craft.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Drumeo
- Steve Gad
- Vinny Kaluta
- Dave Weckl
- Aaron Spears
- Stuart Copeland
- Ringo Starr
- Dave Grohl
- Taylor Hawkins
- Steve Jordan
- John Mayer
- Charlie Watts
- Mick Jagger
- E Rhythm
- Mike Sleath
- Shawn Mendes
- Coldplay
- Maroon 5
Transcript
I just, I, for me it's just inspiration, it's motivation and I look at it as a positive, but it doesn't make me want to quit, you know, I'm just, I'm a hobby drummer, that's what I am.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker A:Like, I'm never gonna be like Tony Royster.
Speaker A:You can hear me play.
Speaker A:Like my, my playing is fine.
Speaker A:I can go fast, I can do some good things, but, oh, it's great.
Speaker A:Don't be so hard against me.
Speaker A:I don't have that same like level of nobody natural talent as someone like Larnell.
Speaker A:Like, come on, right?
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, he's one of the best in the world.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, it's crazy when you could play your face off, but then when you benchmark next to Larnell or someone on his level, then it's just like you become very modest.
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker D:You're a different.
Speaker D:When you see someone like that, it just feels like you're just a different model of human being and there's just like a maximum amount you can rev before all the wheels fall off, right?
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker C:There's levels for sure, there's always levels.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:There's tears, right?
Speaker A:In sports there's tears and in drums there's tears.
Speaker A:And it is just what it is.
Speaker A:Like some people are, have a better work ethic towards that specific goal as well as better natural abilities, you know, so pair those together and they're, they're unstoppable.
Speaker C:Good point.
Speaker C:Are there any drummers out there that you're still like dying to try and get on the Drumeo platform?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Steve Gad, Vinny Kaluta.
Speaker A:I'd love to have Dave Weckel on, love to have Aaron Spears on.
Speaker C:Nice.
Speaker A:Oh my goodness, I could keep going.
Speaker A:We have a list of 150.
Speaker C:Oh, really?
Speaker A:Is that the wacklestick?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Everyone says, oh, you're gonna run out of drummers.
Speaker A:It's like, no, we're not gonna run out of drummers.
Speaker B:Yeah, you have a lot of list right there.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker C:That's incredible.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:I mean, Stuart Copeland, Ringo Starr, you know, there's just like the, the list just goes on and on of Dave Grohl, Taylor Hawkins, Dave.
Speaker A:Steve Jordan.
Speaker A:Steve Jordan's one of the top, one of my tops.
Speaker A:I love.
Speaker C:That's John Mayer's.
Speaker C:John Mayer's drummer.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And, and he, before Charlie Watts passed a couple days ago, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah, totally.
Speaker A:Steve Jordan was set to go on tour and probably is still going on tour with the Stones, so he works with Mick Jagger on some like, he produces some of his stuff.
Speaker B:Huge.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker D:You've just made a comparison to sports between music and sports, and it is very accurate in many different aspects.
Speaker D:But also, music is not at all a sport and is.
Speaker D:It tends to sometimes, especially in classical music, but also in contemporary music, there's lots of competition where creativity is not really something like that.
Speaker D:Is that something that you experience, that competitive edge where it shouldn't be?
Speaker D:And do you have any advice about that for people that feel competitive?
Speaker A:Yeah, I think a lot of people, especially students, because that's what I'm most familiar with.
Speaker A:A lot of students will look at music and they want to quantify their progress in some way.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I was this good, and now I'm this good.
Speaker A:And they want to really feel like they're making, you know, with all the time they're spending, they're making progress.
Speaker A:And we always have to tell them it's not really like that.
Speaker A:I guess, like, there are some elements of it, especially in drums, where it's very physical.
Speaker A:Like, right now, I'm working on a pack about how to build speed.
Speaker A:And I'm going to tell people at the outset, this is not about music.
Speaker A:We're not talking about music here.
Speaker A:You want to go fast.
Speaker A:This is just a tool.
Speaker A:This is a hammer in your tool belt.
Speaker A:But it's like you have to, in your mind, craft the house and design what you're going to do with that hammer.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And I think a lot of people will look at certain elements of learning a guitar, like how fast they can shred on the guitar or how fast they can play slap bass or doing runs on the keyboard.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And they look at that as some benchmark to how good they are and at music, and it's just not.
Speaker A:That's how good you can have developed.
Speaker A:That tool has no relation to music, you know, and so, yeah, music is the end goal.
Speaker A:And we.
Speaker A:We help our students develop the tools to kind of create that end goal.
Speaker A:But it's up to them to really.
Speaker A:And their creativity to come up with something unique.
Speaker A:We can't teach them necessarily how to write.
Speaker A:If I could teach someone how to write a hit song, wouldn't that be amazing?
Speaker A:I have tons of students writing hit songs.
Speaker A:It just doesn't work like that, though.
Speaker B:So can you maybe take that just a little bit further?
Speaker B:What would you.
Speaker B:How would you define the qualities necessary to be a good musician as far as musicianship goes?
Speaker A:I think you have to be a really, really good listener first and foremost, and just like having a conversation with someone.
Speaker A:You know, music is the universal language.
Speaker A:You're conversing with people.
Speaker A:So it's about being able to have a conversation, knowing when to speak, knowing when to get louder, knowing when to get quieter and then also reacting.
Speaker A:You need to be able to react in the moment with someone else.
Speaker A:So as things change, you know, it's just like in this conversation, maybe there's a delay or something.
Speaker A:We're changing, we're adjusting.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Completely.
Speaker A:Music is that way too.
Speaker A:So if you're listening and you're able to react on the fly, that's really, really helpful.
Speaker A:In the, in the realm of drumming, I think it's good to be somewhat versatile, you know, know some different styles or feels.
Speaker A:So not just be like.
Speaker A:A lot of people just learn basic grooves or whatever, but they don't ever, ever explore different styles.
Speaker A:And I think it's important to do that.
Speaker A:You know, it's, it's look at, look at other cultures of music and, and see what they're doing and how you can relate that to yours.
Speaker A:But yeah, I, I think listening is the ultimate.
Speaker A:It's the number one thing that I hear from every famous drummer that has come through is they say you must listen to music and a lot of it if you want to become a well rounded musician.
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker B:That's huge.
Speaker C:If you weren't doing Drumeo, what do.
Speaker A:You think you'd be doing?
Speaker A:I'd probably be in real estate or something.
Speaker C:Real estate, eh?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:In grade four, I said in grade four I wrote on my thing I wanted to be a real estate agent.
Speaker A:And so I, I don't know, man.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I can't imagine really doing different stuff.
Speaker A:But that's what I said to Dave the other day.
Speaker A:Dave is one of the partners at Mizora.
Speaker A:He's like, I'm like, what would we do if this goes belly up?
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I'd have to go like apply for jobs somewhere and figure it out.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:What would you guys do?
Speaker A:I'm surprised.
Speaker D:In the shower.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What would you do?
Speaker B:Me and Doriki both had a bit of a background in computer programming.
Speaker C:Yeah, I worked at.
Speaker B:I would.
Speaker B:Absolutely not.
Speaker C:I would.
Speaker C:Yeah, it's hard.
Speaker C:But if I had to.
Speaker C:Had to, that's my skill set.
Speaker C:Is it?
Speaker C:So I'd probably fall back into some type of IT role.
Speaker C:But I would absolutely hate it.
Speaker C:I hated it when I was doing it and I'll hate it if I have to go back, but I can do it.
Speaker B:So maybe fitness.
Speaker B:Something fitness related.
Speaker D:Oh, yeah, you.
Speaker B:I was answering for you, by the way, Matt.
Speaker D:Yeah, yeah, yeah, not yet.
Speaker D:That's my plan G.
Speaker D:Plan G.
Speaker D:I don't know, I'm thinking some sort of project management, preferably in something creative, maybe in film.
Speaker D:There's just so much to hold together when it comes to creating something artistic.
Speaker D:I think that's why I enjoy being a producer.
Speaker D:Because you just take all these things and mash them into one record.
Speaker D:So probably something that makes me do that.
Speaker D:And if not, then sales, because I think I'm a pretty good salesman.
Speaker D:Speaking of sales.
Speaker D:Not at all.
Speaker D:I just want to talk about technology and how it changes music, which is something that people are either in denial about when it comes to auto tune or just don't really think about.
Speaker D:And I remember watching old Genesis performances and watching Phil Collins play and thinking to myself, nothing really changed in drum technology.
Speaker D:Right?
Speaker D:It's like his cymbals don't have any names on them, but they're still flat pieces of metal and it's still multiply wood and it's still plastic skins and drums are just stuck as they are.
Speaker D:And obviously I was wrong.
Speaker D:And I think one of the biggest examples that I can think of is that when I was learning to play, it was very important to play as on time as possible.
Speaker D:And now there's this whole movement of drummers who play intentionally.
Speaker A:They.
Speaker D:They have their kick sort of flam after the hi hat and the same with the snare.
Speaker D:And it's sort of very almost drunken.
Speaker D:And at first I.
Speaker D:It sounds cool.
Speaker D:I was trying to understand what happened, where did this come from?
Speaker D:And then I realized that it came probably from when sections of music started to be looped for hip hop and for electronic music.
Speaker D:And that loop would be of a real drummer and it would lag a little bit.
Speaker D:And so you'd have songs that have slight lag or a slight acceleration in the drums.
Speaker D:Like the loop would be cut too short or too long.
Speaker D:And that inspired real drummers to intentionally tastefully play out of time.
Speaker D:Do you see.
Speaker D:Where else do you see technology changing how people play, how people think about music and what people enjoy about music?
Speaker A:Yeah, that's a great.
Speaker A:That's a great point.
Speaker A:And Dura Jones is great, is amazing at that.
Speaker A:I don't know if you've heard him play, but he's been on drumeo.
Speaker A:But yeah, I think like I did one album once, the guy brought in like a whole, whole like 10 songs and each one was computer drumming.
Speaker A:And he Wanted to recreate that with acoustic drums.
Speaker A:And it was really challenging.
Speaker A:Like it forced me to play patterns that I hadn't even thought of because it's a.
Speaker A:It's a songwriter creating drum parts who's not a drummer.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:And so you get this weird stuff, right.
Speaker A:And we were looking at this tool.
Speaker A:There's this tool called E Rhythm.
Speaker A:And E Rhythm, it allows you to add specific sounds on and just with a mouse or your finger, create these grooves that sound awesome.
Speaker A:And so as technology shifts, I think the demand on acoustic drummers is going to continue to get stronger.
Speaker A:We're going to be.
Speaker D:I think so.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think we're going to be expected to keep up and to be inspired and shift with some of that.
Speaker A:Because there's something to be said for having the energy of a person on stage creating that part in real time.
Speaker A:They didn't necessarily have to create the part in the studio because no one really sees that.
Speaker A:But when that person goes to.
Speaker A:To.
Speaker A:To play a gig, it's nice to have a drummer on stage playing those parts, recreating them.
Speaker D:That's interesting.
Speaker D:So are you saying that it's going to be limited to live?
Speaker D:Because a lot of bands, and this is in.
Speaker D:In no way something negative.
Speaker D:I like the way it sounds.
Speaker D:But there are bands that used to have traditional drummers like Coldplay, like Maroon 5, like a bazillion more that if you listen to their records now, it's all very creative samples and drum machines and all kinds of tinkery bells and stuff.
Speaker D:What do you think about that transition?
Speaker D:Where in the studio, very often studio records don't have straight up a drum set.
Speaker D:Do you still think their primary role would be to recreate that in acoustic drums live, or how do you see that going?
Speaker A:Yeah, like we just had Mike Sleath.
Speaker A:Mike Sleath plays with Shawn Mendes and a lot of Sean's stuff is programmed.
Speaker A:We talked a lot about the integration of triggers and electronics and we put a lesson on Drumeo, the YouTube channel, about how he does this within all these songs and how he recreates the sounds live.
Speaker A:And so he's one of these guys where he doesn't do any of the studio stuff, as far as I know he might do a little bit, but yeah, you know, that's all done with programming.
Speaker A:And then his job is to recreate that energy and that sound live on the stage so they could do that in a more band setting.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Does that answer your question or did I just kind of go off on another table?
Speaker D:Well, you?
Speaker D:No, you totally answered my question.
Speaker D:I just have sort of more to the question because much like yourself, I tried the whole touring thing and realized that it's not.
Speaker D:It's too demanding.
Speaker D:And it just.
Speaker D:Some people love it.
Speaker D:For me, it felt like my soul was being sucked away.
Speaker D:You know, it was just hotels and.
Speaker D:And, you know, even meeting fans, it's like, I just want to go to sleep.
Speaker D:This is too much like.
Speaker D:So for people like that, like me and you, who probably won't go on long tours anymore.
Speaker D:Are we like, what's our role in the studio, then?
Speaker A:Well, when it comes from a drummer's perspective, I think your goal is similar to what it was before.
Speaker A:Establish the foundation of the song with the rhythms that you choose to integrate in that.
Speaker A:And I would say, as the modern musician, there is going to be a requirement to have an understanding of electronics and how to create beats and things like that.
Speaker A:It's really important.
